This is where I post, and you can post too!
Published on September 13, 2007 By Dan Greene In The Environment
I am finally becoming convinced that this is a real, man made + natural phenomenon. I have become convinced through making an in depth analysis, and seeing how science rather then politics or politicians are providing the tools to conclude that a potentially serious global warming series of events and trends is occurring.

The first bit of evidence you need to know when researching this, is understanding the "actual greenhouse greenhouse effect" and the "greenhouse effect of the Earth".

http://earthguide.ucsd.edu/earthguide/diagrams/greenhouse/

Heat which is energy is transferred in 3 ways, conduction convection and radiation.

In a greenhouse the greenhouse gets heated from the sunlight. This light pours inside and warms the ground inside the greenhouse, which in turn warms the air just above it, this air through a process called diffusion which is when molecules move from an area of greater density to an area of lower density, fuels convection. Warmer air is less dense and cooler air is denser, cooler air being denser falls, while warmer air rises. Because the greenhouse is enclosed, it is a closed system, just like the Earth, however inside the Earth's closed system much more convection is occurring and the majority of heat that makes it into the Earth's system is re-radiated back at the planet.

The energy that travels through the vacuum of space is all radiation. On the Earth most of this energy is transferred via radiation and convection. Inside a greenhouse, sunlight penetrates the glass or plastic covering, via radiation. The glass or plastic is impermeable meaning that the molecules in a gas form cannot penetrate it and are trapped. Since they are trapped, the energy remains largely trapped, this is what increases the temperature inside the greenhouse.

On the Earth it works largely the same way, sunlight penetrates the atmosphere and is trapped. Some of it is re-radiated but a significant majority of that energy that gets into the system on Earth is drives out weather and climate.

The Earth's average surface temperature is about 33°C warmer than it would be without the greenhouse effect.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenhouse_effect
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Greenhouse_Effect.png

When you increase the concentration of these greenhouse gases in the atmosphere, which is occurring yearly, and has been since the industrial revolution, but not at the same magnitude as presently, the ability of the atmosphere to act as a stronger radiator of energy back into the Earth's system of energy containment is increased.

In the last 50 years the amount of greenhouse gases has steadily increased, measured in parts per million, is not at the highest level in recorded history.

We know that the rate is high because we can measure, and independently verify preserved samples, of ice, taken in the antarctic, which match up very consistently across the continent, as far back as about 800,000 years. The ice itself cannot be measured by temperature, as it doesn't remain the same temperature as it did since then, however it has remained a solid since the time, as evidence by the layers or freezing visually identifiable.

These layers, when measured for "greenhouse gases" show very consistent patterns, which correlate directly with temperature. As the presence of greenhouse gases increases the temperature of the climate increases, in direct proportion. This is important because it gives scientists the ability to accurately predict the trend that is is increased greenhouse gases present in the system, means increased average temperature.

Why is increased average temperature a concern? It has to do with raising sea levels, because of the polar ice melting, although very slowly, it is occurring. What happens when land masses are no longer covered by snow and ice, is very similar to what happens in a greenhouse, that landmass, is heated by radiation from the sun, and the air is warmed, and spreads out, further increasing the rates of convection and re-radiation of the energy from sunlight already trapped in the atmosphere.

Science as of yet, has no way of controlling either the amount of sunlight entering the Earth's atmosphere, or speeding up the process of removing the excess energy in the atmosphere, or reducing the amount of greenhouse gas emissions that are being produced and leading to the increased rate of energy accumulation inside the Earth's system.

Comments (Page 3)
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on Oct 23, 2007
why should i write 10 paragraphs when it isn't needed


laziness or illeteracy jumps to mind.

That's about how you write in this whole forum: 1 small sentence, either attacking 1/100th of an entire article, or inventing a problem. Usually worded is snippy comments, like you simply deign say something to hit the other side, not even trying to make a valid point, or backing your arguments.
on Oct 23, 2007
That's about how you write in this whole forum: 1 small sentence, either attacking 1/100th of an entire article, or inventing a problem. Usually worded is snippy comments, like you simply deign say something to hit the other side, not even trying to make a valid point, or backing your arguments.


what valid point are you trying to make. only people who write a 500 word essay can make a valid point. if so then you haven't made a valid point have you. i attack what i feel needs to be attacked. i use little words and few words so that little minds like you can understand. but i see i have wasted my time with you,
on Oct 24, 2007
Man is pumping in lots of CO2, and it is trapping more and more of the suns energy inside the Earth, and at a higher rate, than ever in history.


Yes, man produces a lot of C02 into the atmosphere the last estimate from the WWF was 1.4 billion tons of pollutants a year. Contrast that with what Mother Nature puts out. One volcano puts out 14.7 billion tons of pollutants A DAY! Just so you don’t misunderstand there are on average 56 erupting volcanoes around the world every day. So you multiply 14.7 billion tons times 56 times 365 and that is what big momma puts out in a year.

So as I said before, yes, man puts out a lot of pollutants. When you see the differences in what man does to the planet and what nature does to the planet we are not even noticed by this planet.

Just so you know, the last time there was a lot pollutants put in the air was just before the last major ice age. Over ten thousand volcanoes erupted for roughly three thousand years before the planet was altered. Oh, I almost forgot at that time the atmosphere was so toxic that nothing living today could have lived back then. It was only the algae in the oceans that absorbed the carbon and sulfur in the air making it toxic for all living creatures on the planet that made way for us. The coral reefs were formed from that carbon in the air absorbed by on celled organisms. They took in the carbon dioxide and farted oxygen. They are dying now because there is not enough carbon in the air to feed them any more.

On the other hand the Sun has gotten 10% larger which means closer to the Earth which also means warmer for the Earth. Maybe we should go along with NASA back in the 1960's when they first noticed the rise in global temp and confirmed it in 1976. The sun is getting bigger and closer to us and if you stand too close to a fire you get hot and then burned. Man contributes 6/100 of a degree per centrury. what is it that we as a species can do to make the global climate change go away?

The only options we have are, 1. put up a sun shade between us and the Sun. this will cool off the planet quickly.
2. turn off the Sun and that will cool us off real fast we will go from an average mean temp of 75 degrees to minus 500 degrees, and on day five it will get a lot colder.
3. Find a new planet to live on cause this one is done.

If mankind not just stopped all use of fosile fules but died out as a species in one hour, 100 years later the temp would still go up. So what can we do to make a difference?

NOTHING!
on Oct 24, 2007
So what can we do to make a difference?

NOTHING!


That is a lovely attitude...we should teach this to children while they're in school.

~Zoo
on Oct 24, 2007
So what can we do to make a difference?

NOTHING!


That is a lovely attitude...we should teach this to children while they're in school.




better idea run around like chicken little.
on Oct 24, 2007
That is a lovely attitude...we should teach this to children while they're in school.

~Zoo


So telling the truth that the Earth and every planet in the solar system is going to die with the Sun which is also killing the solar system as it gets larger and larger. Eventually the Sun will expand to engulf the orbits of Mercury, Venus, and possibly the Earth. Even if it does not by the time the Sun reaches the orbit between Mercury and Venus it will be about 750 degrees on the Earth. This is global climate change or global warming. It is going to happen and we can’t stop it. right now the Sun is over a million miles around and 93 million miles from the Earth. The heat we receive from the Sun will increase as the star expands. Do you know of some way to stop the Sun from expanding? I know of two ways to do it but we don’t have the ability to do them.

The easy way is to take all the hydrogen and helium from both Jupiter and Saturn, then compress it down to metallic hydrogen and gently insert it into the center of the Sun without igniting it. This will stabilize the core and increase the gravitational force of the star which holds itself in. Of course the temp will drop on good old Earth. We will have a million or two year ice age to contend with but it will add roughly a billion years to the habitability of the Earth. Other than that we have to move off the planet or go extinct. Any other ideas?

The hard way is to move the planet Earth out to the orbit of Mars. This will add another three million years of habitability to the Earth.
It won’t matter how much we conserve this is going to happen and can’t be stopped unless we do one of the two options. The good news is that we have between 1500 and 14,000 years before the Earth becomes too hot for us to live on.

So, Zoo what do we tell the children?
on Oct 26, 2007
This thread is about 3 things.

A. Global warming
1. Does it exist?
2. Is it caused by humans, and to what degree?
3. If it does what are the ways or reducing that or controlling it?

B. Alternative energy sources to oil and coal, resources which have a limited supply and are constantly in such demand as to cause wars.
1. Are they feasible yes/no why not?
2. Anybody know of a cheap way to do this?

C. Identifying the problems ranging from belief in global warming and understanding of it as a problem to be managed or ignored.
1. Is this a political problem?
2. Is this a startup capital problem?
3. Is this a global or local problem?
on Nov 14, 2007
A. Global warming
1. Does it exist?
2. Is it caused by humans, and to what degree?
3. If it does what are the ways or reducing that or controlling it?


I see where you are going wrong now. In science we don't start off with the idea that it is or is not something.
1. The answer is yes.
2. The answer is no. Man's total contrabution to Global Warming is 6/100 of one degree per century.
3. The answer is nothing. Man can not stop it from happening again. I say again because it has happened at least fifteen times in the last 700 million years all of them before man showed up on this plante meaning that man is not the cause.

B. Alternative energy sources to oil and coal, resources which have a limited supply and are constantly in such demand as to cause wars.
1. Are they feasible yes/no why not?
2. Anybody know of a cheap way to do this?


Your statement is not true and based on junk science. Oil is created by micro organizms that produce oil as waste products. Even today new oil is being produced. The same is true with coal.
1. the answer is I don't understand the question.
2. do what?

C. Identifying the problems ranging from belief in global warming and understanding of it as a problem to be managed or ignored.
1. Is this a political problem?
2. Is this a startup capital problem?
3. Is this a global or local problem?


Global warming is a fact, the myth or lie is that man is the cause to global warming or that man can stop global warming.
In my opinion the situation should not be ignored but the truth should be made clear to all.
1. this is a political problem and it is a problem with religion. the religious fanatics believe that man made global warming is something that should be stopped. These nuts have made it a political problem for the world.
2. no, it is a credibility problem. ask any scientist and they will tell you that the Earth will get hotter, then it will get colder, and then it will get hotter again. Each time the cold periods will be less and less while the hotter periods will be longer and longer.
3. stupid question unless you have no knowledge of science past the 5th grade.
on Nov 14, 2007
Global warming may be a myth. The science I look at, tends to be not entirely conclusive. Maybe it is all wrong, maybe in part wrong. Maybe it is a jump to a conclusion that is incorrect.

Oil on the other hand is a resource, and like all resources it is a scarcity. As it become more scarce and the demand remains the same, the price increases, in a flexible market, proportionally.

The price of oil is climbing, and the demand continues to climb, the supply, can only be getting smaller as it is not a renewable resource. Stand behind your idea that oil will last forever and you will find just how flawed that idea is.

I believe it would be much wiser for our nation to start actively finding other ways to generate power and energy, opposed to oil and coal. Coal is also a non renewable resource.

It makes little sense to build a city where it will be destroyed by a volcano, or flood, or hurricane, or fire, but we are pretty good as a nation at doing that, to our own peril. I believe it is the same with our energy policy/lack of one.
on Nov 14, 2007
Oil on the other hand is a resource, and like all resources it is a scarcity. As it become more scarce and the demand remains the same, the price increases, in a flexible market, proportionally.


Who told you that oil is scarce? EnvironMENTAList for 30 years have blocked the oil companies from building refineries. Each time the oil companies said that it will increase the price of oil and each time the nuts say that BIg Oil is just saying that in order to raise the price of gas. It takes 15 to 20 years to build test and begin to run an oil refinery. Our nation is 30 years behind the demand curve. You see it is not lack of oil it is our tiny refining capacity. We refin oil not just for the US but for Canada, Iran, Iraq, Israel, and many other nations. this was back when we were at 70% of maximum capacity, now we are at 96% which means ther is no place to pick up the slack when a refinery goes down for maintnence or repair or worse a huricane or fire. we had a refinery go down due to a fire five years ago that is just getting back on line the same time the refineries damaged by Katrina are just coming on line which is why the price of gas dropped over the summer even when the price of oil went up, but we are still in need of 50 new refineries.

I believe it would be much wiser for our nation to start actively finding other ways to generate power and energy, opposed to oil and coal. Coal is also a non renewable resource.


Once again we have nuclear power but can't use it, wind power is good but no one wants it in their back yard. THere have been great strides in Solar cells but they are too expensive because the silicone needed for the solar cells is being used by the computer industry jacking up the prices. What I am saying is that we have what it takes to seriously reduce out use of oil but the computer industry and nuts worried about the spotted dart lizard have blocked all serious advancements in alternative fules. I left out hydrogen power because it takes 4 times the energy to make them.

It makes little sense to build a city where it will be destroyed by a volcano, or flood, or hurricane, or fire, but we are pretty good as a nation at doing that, to our own peril. I believe it is the same with our energy policy/lack of one.


we pay our money. we take our chances. it is called freedom. we do what we want, live where we want, every action has a price I live in Florida, my friends asked me why I bought a house so far from the beach. My house was on the only block above sea level and three miles from the beach. Hurricane Andrew came by for a visit my house lost the top ten feet of two trees. my friend lost his house. He paid a price for choosing to live where he did. I paid a price too. his family moved in with my family till they could rent a house.
on Nov 16, 2007
"Who told you that oil is scarce?"

All resources by economic definition are scarce. When demand exceeds supply, the price goes up, all other factors equal.

"It takes 15 to 20 years to build test and begin to run an oil refinery. Our nation is 30 years behind the demand curve. You see it is not lack of oil it is our tiny refining capacity."

I agree, however, if there will be an end to a particular resource, such as oil, then it is wise, to invest in other sources of power. Demand for energy is increasing more then linearly, almost at an exponential rate. Alternative sources need investment, by private industry but also by the government in order to develop into competitive alternatives to oil and carbon based non-renewable fuel.

"Once again we have nuclear power but can't use it"

Bullshit, it's as renewable as coal and oil, without all the secondary negatives, aside from spent nuclear fuel.

My entire point in continued investment in oil/coal when there are alternatives we could be investing in, like solar, and wind, is unfortunate, and when the oil does run out, or go from $100 a barrel to $1,000 we are going to have to act much faster then we do now.
on Nov 16, 2007
I agree, however, if there will be an end to a particular resource, such as oil, then it is wise, to invest in other sources of power. Demand for energy is increasing more then linearly, almost at an exponential rate. Alternative sources need investment, by private industry but also by the government in order to develop into competitive alternatives to oil and carbon based non-renewable fuel.



we haven't even look for oil on one continent as far as i know.
on Nov 16, 2007
My entire point in continued investment in oil/coal when there are alternatives we could be investing in, like solar, and wind, is unfortunate, and when the oil does run out, or go from $100 a barrel to $1,000 we are going to have to act much faster then we do now.


Well, if people like Paladin77 would stop hammering that global warming does not exists, we could establish a carbon credit market in N. America, and promoting many energy-efficient or de-polluting technologies trough the private industry.


we haven't even look for oil on one continent as far as i know.


What the hell are you talking about?
on Nov 16, 2007
we haven't even look for oil on one continent as far as i know.


What the hell are you talking about?


there is an entire continent that is off limits to development i call it Antarctica.
on Nov 16, 2007
there is an entire continent that is off limits to development i call it Antarctica.


on good bases, when you think about it. I mean, who wants a fight over who really owns Antartica?
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