I wish I could get just one fully thought out response in on my own blog.

I guess you just wanna take this little diversion you have right now and run it thorough.

Don't whine. Just think of all the bonus points you're getting.

Plus you'll get mad referrals over time for the celebrity reference (which is how that danged Mary Kate article still hovers near the top of my all time top articles list!)

Look, Gid, First you said that...

"If you imply Wisconsin is not a racist state, you are either a liar or blind. Open persecution of Hmongs is practically a statewide sport! And NEVER did I see the violent acts of racism I witnessed in Wisconsin."

Which you later came back to say, Wisconsin is no more racist than anyplace else.

"And how conveniently you miss the KKK rallies in Madison."

Which I cited an article about how they were canceled due to public outcry.

"The racism followed this woman home. She was harassed at home routinely."

Which you didn't cite and I can't find any evidence of this stories existence, and you claim it doesn't matter because racism doesn't get reported because it was rampant i.e. commonplace. Going on and on to support your argument with...

"the literally hundreds of "water cooler" discussions that stereotyped Hmongs, caricatured their race, treated them as less than human and spread lies about them."

and

"Again, I heard a lot of "water cooler" talk, and I knew a lot of individuals there."

Then you said...

"No, didn't say it is rampant and the norm."

But comments like "racist by nature" and "hundreds of undocumented discussions" do not equal obscurity and a serious diversion from the mainstream.

"And again, I resent the inference that I made them up, Dan. That's the point that pisses me off."

Don't take it personally. I have no reason to believe you are being any more literal with the facts than you do me, however I have consistently attempted to provide support for what I present as factual insight by providing someone else concurring opinion. In your case you are not.

"Again, if I were making things up, it would be in my best interest to make up a whole host of stories."

Thanks for reassuring us you didn't do it, Osama. LOL.

"What really ticked me off at the whole incident wasn't the initial act. Idiots are idiots, after all, as we both well know."

You referred to me as an idiot, thanks for insulting me as well, Like I'm supposed to care about your resentment? How about you play fair and bring some citations to support your "factual assertions" or stay on your own blog writing about how I'm the big bad idiot boy who can't take a literary punch lol.

"It's fear on the part of the victim, in my experience. I think most reporters would readily go with the story if someone would give them something solid to proceed with."

Oh Bullshit, there are and have been multiple competing news outlets in the fox valley, and the "racial angle" of both the beating of an Appleton cop in Milwaukee and the Hmong hunting incident was well covered and stuck out because of the appalling nature of each crime.

"You think shows like Maury Povich reflect reality?"

Oh Give me a break Whip, only you would be so dense looking at me with your liberal red-blue filter glasses on to not think that was a joke.

"While this tactic has been successful in keeping negative public opinion towards the Klan at a fever pitch, it's done the unwary public a huge disservice by fostering complacency..."Ah, the Klan is tiny, ineffectual, and plagued with bufoonery, no need to worry about 'em at ALL."

OMG you actually do think I watch the Maury Povich show, and take notes, and uh make decisions based on that?

Fuck that, pull you head out of your ass Whip and get a clue. I was making a joking analogy, and you two are the only two losers on JU who have bought into debating it.

It's fun to drop in here on the odd day of a month and stir the pot and that is exactly what I did, for fun, you know kicks, shits and giggles.

I mean don't you feel relieved to know that the trickery is over.

"Whoopi would disagree." that there is a correlation with black people and dogfighting. Well I guess that makes it a fact then, oh well time for me to pack my bags and go write about something else. LOL

You have a Mary Kate article? Do you have a Avon one too?

Avon lady calling, opps no mamn it's just me Gid. LOL

I'm gonna fall out of my tree laughing at you guys, you are all a riot.

It's true. I never personally witnessed what I witnessed in Oshkosh. Grant you, it's not the "night rider" violence of the early KKK, but it's also not the more subtle "keep your place" racism of the south that doesn't rear its ugly head until someone gets caught in the wrong neighbourhood at the wrong hour.



I'll give you this one. I had been unaware it had been cancelled.



I already told you it wasn't reported, and I told you why. But I, and others who worked there, KNOW what happened.



Maybe the racist by nature comment was slightly hyperbolic, but the water cooler discussions were not. And I won't even go so far as to say supervisors ALWAYS ignored them WHEN THEY WERE MADE AWARE OF THEM (with the exception of one boss, who, although he talked a good game, would hire absolutely anyone who could do the job regardless of race). But racism, as you know, is one of those nasty insidious diseases nobody generally talks about until it escalates. And I don't know if you've ever been in a supervisory position, but you've got to make a pretty good paper trail to dismiss someone for racist remarks.



I don't have contact with any of my coworkers from Lamico back in the day. And even if I did, how inclined would you be to believe them?

I DO take it personally, because you called me a liar. I don't appreciate that, Dan. I was liberal enough to tell you the place of employment and other details. While that doesn't totally verify the story, it does place me "at the scene". Reporters have made front page stories with less.



Which PROVES reporters will run with the story if they're given something to run with.

OK, you are saying I'm full of shit for saying incidents aren't reported out of fear? Well, then, apparently, according to you, a lot of rapes and molestations don't happen because they're not reported out of FEAR.

Fear is not based on reality, it's based on perception. Think about this for a second. IN the case that I cited, this individual had not only harassed this woman at work, he also managed to find her at home. While there was no evidence that I'm aware of that this man was a member of a larger hate group (IF the individual we suspected was, in fact, guilty), how was she to KNOW that? I've known more than my share of morons to walk the streets sporting tatoos purporting to be members of "big, bad" organizations when they were not in any way associated. Restraining orders, as anyone who deals with domestic violence will tell you, are only as good as the paper they're written on when the individual in question is prone to violence.



Well, I guess I was mistaken in thinking the recent comments amounted to a civil discussion. You don't want me on your blog, I'll take your invitation and leave then.

Actually, Dan, go to my blog and read the article before pissing yourself laughing at me. It had a point to be made, one you might actually agree with.

Go ahead. It's from three years ago, but it's still listed as my number two article. Until you've READ it, you don't have valid reason to criticize.

"Go ahead. It's from three years ago, but it's still listed as my number two article. Until you've READ it, you don't have valid reason to criticize."

Yeah maybe I'll get around to it,

"Maybe the racist by nature comment was slightly hyperbolic,"

I'm the one back peddling? I'll give you credit for acknowledgment of it's outrageousness and embellishment in describing the bulk of a state, or it's local communities.

The fact that these racial intolerance escapades, which often originate through people from foreign communities coming into another place to "raise awareness" of their cause, have been canceled and not accepted by the majority of Wisconsinites means this community does not deserve that labeling.

"And I don't know if you've ever been in a supervisory position, but you've got to make a pretty good paper trail to dismiss someone for racist remarks."

I have been, on a few different occasions, my most challenging assignments as a supervisor were supervising 45-50 year old adults working fast food, who would break out in fist fights in the back of the restaurant over who was going to do what, and dealing with "the bosses nephew" who had an anger management, pot addiction , and was chronicle unable to control his temper, again in the back of the restaurant. This guy, about my age, maybe a year or two older, would throw a temper tantrum to put a spoiled four year old to shame, screaming about how people shouldn't be ordering such large orders of food, LOL (Working in a restauraunt, he was complaining daily/nightly about people ordering too much.)

Maybe I wasn't the most effective shift supervisor but the manager refused to fire any of these people so my hands were tied and my role was damage control. I am so happy to be free of that.

Needless to say, I understand that you have to document lots of behaviors, and as a manager there are compromises made in which are addressed. As I stated, I have been largely free from working with racially intolerant people, while working with a diverse crowd. Yes the state of Wisconsin as a whole, is 90% white when counted on a census, which doesn't count lots of people. I will still argue that I worked with a diverse crowd and that today I still do although not in a restaurant thankfully. Just because a majority are white doesn't mean that minorities aren't included or represented.

From my perspective, I have found that comments about race or perceived racially intolerant people, though rarely encountered, either don't express it, or don't last long at the type of jobs I've been employed at, because of the behavior or other behaviors that are common in ignorant people. When I was a supervisor I did not have to deal with a single race issue, though I served customers from all different backgrounds and worked with as I said, a diverse crowd.

"OK, you are saying I'm full of shit for saying incidents aren't reported out of fear? Well, then, apparently, according to you, a lot of rapes and molestations don't happen because they're not reported out of FEAR."

Maybe you are telling the whole truth and nothing but it. It is you who say I am calling you a liar. I implied that you didn't provide anything to support your statements, except what basically amounts to opinion.

Of course rapes and molestations occur and go unreported as well as racism. The incident you describe could very well have happened, and been racism, and been nothing but. However, you say

"...this individual had not only harassed this woman at work, he also managed to find her at home. While there was no evidence that I'm aware of that this man was a member of a larger hate group (IF the individual we suspected was, in fact, guilty)..."

You don't have any evidence that the person was guilty. So it could have been anything else. Likely what you said, but possibly something else. Now, ask me to convict the state of Wisconsin and my community, Appleton, as "racist by nature" based on your perception which is not backed up by

A. Solid Evidence or even any evidence except the way it looked, i.e perception.
B. A criminal investigation

I'm sorry, but Gid you get way out of line when you make sweeping statements like that, encompassing the entire state and community, for what apparently are the actions of two people who didn't like each other, and harassment. Racism or not.

The story about the Hmong shooter, the cultural difference, the lack of understanding about property laws, by the Hmong man, probably lack of English speaking skill, led to the misunderstanding, and the tragedy oh him feeling threatened by the land owners and gunning them down. Racially motivated or not, the owners had the right to be on the property and protect themselves against trespassers., the fact that there is a cultural difference between the Hmong and white Wisconsinites is only a triviality. His defense team claimed that they shouted racial insults and perhaps they did, He killed six of them, shot the woman twice, hardly self-defense, and hardly like it matters. It was no revenge, he freaked because there were six of them and they wanted him off their land.

http://www.courttv.com/trials/vang/091305_ctv.html
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,139239,00.html
One of the reasons I don't go hunting, lots of people, some crazy, with guns in the woods, no thanks.

If they did racially slur him, maybe it would be fair to say, that the Hmong community needs to do a better job of conforming to local laws. Nobody wants to live in a society where we accept being judged by our race but if there is a direct correlation, which in this case, Hmong hunters, on this property without permission. I have a hard time believing that the Hmong hunter got the details exactly right,

I do believe that you, in the 90's and maybe even more recently had or observed conversations at the water cooler or whatever about race, with people expressing their views, in a racist way. Do your coworkers represent the state, maybe, but maybe not. I do know that the community I live in, actively works to prevent the type of behaviors, crimes, and racial motivated hate that you describe experiencing in Oshkosh.

"It's pathetic. They let all these foreigners in here, and they walk all over everybody's property," said Jim Arneberg, owner of the Haugen Inn in nearby Haugen."

From the Fox news article, here is an example of what you are talking about right? The kind of racist dogma that people just take cheap shots about and really should be ashamed of themselves for.

I don't think Oshkosh is either particularly representative or not dis-representative of Wisconsin. Each area is different, cities like Milwaukee obviously have more and different racial issues to work with because of the population and proportion of minorities of those communities.

In places like Appleton where the community reaches out quite actively it may or may not be different. The fact that I have rarely been to Oshkosh and never lived there might mean something different also.

By the way Gid. There has been another "incident" read this, and see how the Wisconsin community reacts and the way the story is written about the race angle. Again, white hunter, Hmong hunter, shooting and stabbing.

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:wwqd4Kh_pkkJ:www.todaystmj4.com/news/local/5832776.html+Hmong+hunter+shooting&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=9&gl=us

A whole bunch more on the shooting

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1289180/posts

Oh by the way. That Hmong hunter who killed the 6 in Wisconsin, he killed another hunter a few years before. So he was a murderer before he was the victim of the racism, perhaps he brought it upon himself and wanted a confrontation with the hunting party.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1287569/posts
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1289045/posts#confirmation

Interesting twist. It seems there are always circumstances behind the scenes.

I'm not referring to the incident from 2004. I referred to it only in passing, stating that comments indicated that racial comments may have escalated the situation. I was referring to the more recent incident which you cited where the Hmong was the victim. In the Vang case, REGARDLESS of whether racial comments escalated the situation, Vang is paying the penalty he deserves for his actions.

I would like to point you to a comment in the article you listed (the TMJ4 article) where the reporter states "The slaying has rekindled racial tension in northern Wisconsin,". Apparently the reporter thinks racial tension exists in northern Wisconsin, or the comment would not have been made.

"When you cite what you see on Maury as if that's a reliable source"

But you see dear, I did not cite it at all, nor did I give it reliability, I just gave it as an example. Citation requires a link to something with further depth on the subject.

"An example of providing citation would be this... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maury_Povich"

I don't think Maury is any more credible a source than Anna Nicole Smith. It is you who chose to assume I was providing "evidentiary" or "supporting" fact, when in fact I was making an example. I did see segments of his show with some little kids in the KKK ghost costume bologna and I was disgusted but that doesn't make whats on his show factual.

"Maury and others have worked their media magic on you"

Yup, that's obvious, so says you.

"the assumption that no adults seek to join the Klan."

Joining the Klan is a dangerous activity, the only goal of the KKK is to rid the world of any race except whites. Encouraging that by any means. Smoking is also a dangerous activity and adults in their 30's and 40's don't start because they see the others around them who can't quit. The Klan is not addictive like cigarettes are however the marketing and indoctrination of children and young adults works on youth as that is the most impressionable age to be.

Forgive me if I gave you the idea that nobody in adulthood joins the clan or starts smoking, you may be right, but the overwhelming majority start in their youth through indoctrination or looking for alternative to mainstream lifestyles.

"The Klan isn't welcomed ANYWHERE anymore," They frequently march all over the nation, Minnesota for example had a rally not too long ago, and if you look dig deep online, you can see a bit of a resurgence since 9/11/01 on that.

"Most likely it was cancelled for one of two reasons, neither having anything to do with the welcome they were likely to recieve."

I cited an article delving into the detail. Again, if you want to participate here Whip, you need to pay attention.

"I realize that this thread has wandered far off topic"

Thanks for helping to put it back on track. want you to know that the Klan does 'live next door' and many of them *are* intelligent, articulate, dangerous...and underground. The fact that you don't see them out there making fools of themselves is no reason to relax and pronounce racism defeated, in your neighborhood, town, state, or nation.

I guess the same could be said for National Socialism, or Communism in the United States, you begin to sound like Col Gene, or Paladin, Whip.

"Why is your town so white, Dan?"

Minorities have historically chosen to cluster in the mainland United States, and, Wisconsin. The fact is we are only a few generations removed from a history of first enslavement, then segregation and pseudo-laws protecting people from discrimination, and then later and finally a civil rights showdown in the 1960's which brought to the forefront the issue of race. 1963-65-68 were historic and culture shaping years and the expectation in the 70's 80's and 90's since then has been that equal rights will be upheld, with that in mind, people are moving to different parts of the country.

Why don't you ask me why Wisconsin doesn't have an Eskimo population? It is because demographics, in the absence of war do not change rapidly. The United States has a low birthrate for countries worldwide.

Wisconsin isn't far out of line when you look at neighboring states,

Minnesota 85% white
Illinois 80% white
Iowa 96% white
Indiana 90% white
Michigan 83% white

As for Appleton, I'm still looking for the particular demographics that are updated.