And, again, since you continually claim you did not demand that I leave the country because I criticized Wisconsin, here is the ORIGINAL quote.



It's pretty clear you're asking me to leave the country.

I disagree VERY strongly with your POV, Dan, but NEVER have I stated you don't have the right to that opinion (only that it is ill-informed), or that you should leave the country of your birth because of it. YOU DID say that to me!

You crossed the line, which is ironic since you're spending so much time accusing another blogger of doing so!

*correction* LW's stats put Appleton at 70,000, which is the more accurate figure.

If it is such a racist and awful place why did you live here for the better part of a decade?

Asking you to move to another country was a joke, but asking you to stop whining wasn't.

"One tenth of one percent blacks and you brag about how little racism there is there? HAHAHAHAHA! There ain't no racism because it's a pretty damned homogenous community, dontcha think?"

So what you are saying is there is and is not racism? I really don't understand why this is such an issue with you Gid, certainly if it is so important why did you pack up and leave?

Fact is you make it seem like this is a country no matter where people live, of bigots, and maybe in certain places it is more than it is not. Contrary to your popularization of the theme, we don't have people burning down churches because of racial motivation, we don't have people burning crosses on each others lawns, we don't have the federal government coming into our towns and cities to clean up our schools because we are segregating classrooms.

The vandalism incident you talk about, how do you know that was racially motivated?

"You held Appleton, Wisconsin up as a paragon of virtue and when I proved otherwise, you backpedaled."

Yep you win, so tell us more about Appleton, tell us all about it. Tell us about how we drink tang for lunch every day, get down on our knees and pray to Allah five times a day. Tell about how we drive in the left lane and in reverse and how the one ways point in the opposite direction we turn.

The census only counts legal citizens of which as you all know, each city is home to many illegal citizens, beyond that, there is a pretty large maybe 1 or 2 percent of the population who is here from foreign nations studying at Lawrence University and the Fox Valley Tech.

I really don't care for the tone of your "I got you and I'm better than you" responses Gid. Like this. "Because I verbally kicked your lily white ASS!"

Really is that how a mature adult makes a point? I guess on JU its ok but really, would you be caught making a point like that to anybody you knew in person? Maybe your experiences, which you take as racially inspired are really just the majority uh "white people" not liking your smug attitude.

Let me ask you. Did you ever have someone burn a cross on your lawn? Key your car? Use a racial slur describing you in public? Did you hear a gas station attendant say the "N" word to you but didn't say anything to him?

Do you have any "PERSONAL" experiences of racism directed at you here in my town at all, or is it all just third party, and hearsay bologna that you concoct in the absence of anything relevant to back yourself up?

Sure you can point out a KKK group in Appleton, Appleton is the 5th largest metropolitan area in Wisconsin, whoever this John Birch guys is, I've never heard of him until you mention it, supposedly some racist or whatever, but there are plenty of people represented, like I said, it's a diverse community. We seem to be able to get along with a pretty low crime rate and the businesses of which I have been a part of do not tolerate racist attitudes.

That's my perspective, I respect that you have a differing opinion but just because you have an opinion, without any factual news articles to support does not make it factual.

This is beside the point of this thread anyway, I'm not sure why you continue to pursue it. Appleton is not alone in the Fox Valley and combined there are well over 200,000 people here, so please don't try to make Appleton out to be some white Eskimo city so far north we are oblivious to the problems of society. We have problems I never said we didn't, I just DISAGREED WITH YOUR CHARACTERIZATION THAT APPLETON IS "RACIST BY NATURE" Opps, was my caps lock on?

Does having a disagreeing opinion make me wrong automatically GID. By the way where were you when we were discussing MICHAEL VICK, being that you have such a relevant perspective on race and race relations, I would assume you had something to say about it. I guess not huh.

Ok, uh. Since I'm WHITE, I'd have to say the racial incidents haven't been directed at me, Dan. Do you have to be black to even OBSERVE racism now?



Well, when the "N" word was put repeatedly on the woman's car and a dead raccoon dropped in her mailbox, I'd have a hard time thinking it had to do with the woman's fashion choices, Dan-O



MORE than a decade, Dan. 12 > 10.

Now that the math lesson's out of the way: I never said it was an awful place. Racism exists everywhere, Dan. That's a sad truth of life. It's not exclusive to a region, or for that matter, an ethnic group.



Nope. Point me to the post where I claimed to be a mature adult!



I have plenty to say about it. Vick's RACE has nothing to do with his crime, and you know it.

My issue, Dan, was with you getting on your throne and running LW down as a racist because of her terminology. YOU first played the race card, I did not. I'm tired of seeing the South and my friends run down as racists by self righteous northerners who have a pretty big beam to pull out of their own eye before pulling the speck out of ours.

As for your not having heard of John Birch, Dan, that shows you have a lot to learn.

I don't have any personal feelings towards you one way or another, Dan. But I'm personally fed up with the piling on and attacking people that you and others are so prone to engage in. I've proven what I set out to prove.

(Psst, Dan...a little info for ya from Wikipedia):

The school has a low number of American minority students: over 75% of the students identify as white. Lawrence does have a significant population of international students compared to its total student body and small size, about 12%.


WWW Link

Also important to note is that Lawrence is a private university of less than 1500 students.

Yup, 375 minority students makes a community of 70,000 "diverse".

"Ok, uh. Since I'm WHITE, I'd have to say the racial incidents haven't been directed at me, Dan. Do you have to be black to even OBSERVE racism now?"

If Wisconsin is so racist you'd be a victim of racism no matter what your color not? Or would you like to describe it as "reverse racism" LOL.

"Well, when the "N" word was put repeatedly on the woman's car and a dead raccoon dropped in her mailbox, I'd have a hard time thinking it had to do with the woman's fashion choices, Dan-O"

I guess I'm still looking for some proof you didn't make that up. So lets see it and I'll gladly concede the point to you. You seem to be really confident that proving Appleton and the Fox Valley is racist, go ahead and prove it.

"I have plenty to say about it. Vick's RACE has nothing to do with his crime, and you know it."

Agreed, so why jump all over me on the race angle for taking that stance from the beginning?

"My issue, Dan, was with you getting on your throne and running LW down as a racist because of her terminology. YOU first played the race card, I did not. I'm tired of seeing the South and my friends run down as racists by self righteous northerners who have a pretty big beam to pull out of their own eye before pulling the speck out of ours."

I see, well the fact that I don't use racial slurs and choose to go along with putting race into the description of people, in my mind, distinguishes me from those who do. Making decisions or judgments about people, over and beyond their actions, but based in part or in whole on race is what racism and stereotyping is all about.

There is nothing typical of black people being affiliated with dogfighting or being vicious, or semi-retarded, or greedy. There is also, only in Whips' mind, and others who make judgments of a person based on race, no correlation between attitudes of "self entitlement or resentment" which are chosen and influenced behaviors.

I guess what I am saying is people white or black chose make their choices, I can see how race but more specifically culture plays a role in influencing choices, but her description here, and in threads past, specifically the Michael Richards thing, demonstrate a pattern of racial hatred. If not blacks, Muslims. The fact that lots of blacks happen to also be Muslim I'm sure bothers to a degree beyond the sum of either.

Appleton is not a place that you can accurately describe like Milwaukee, or Los Angeles, where you would see a gang of teens attacking an old man, or rioters smashing a brick on someones head, or off duty police officers beating a man nearly to death. It just isn't that kind of place. Now if you want to say racism exists everywhere, no where will you find me in disagreement. But that's different than saying "Appleton is racist by nature" which is sensationalizing and over exaggerating the part race plays in the lives of the people of the Fox Valley, and what you stated, taking a shot at Appleton, a place you maybe have been to a dozen times or less in your life and I have lived.

"As for your not having heard of John Birch, Dan, that shows you have a lot to learn."

I have asked you several times for the benefit of myself and others to explain, why it is he seems to be a name worth noting. Please by all means, is he some Malcolm X or Louis Faracon? I've never heard of him, because he is probably largely irrelevant to mainstream society which is where I live and clearly your primary influences and fears are not.

"I don't have any personal feelings towards you one way or another, Dan. But I'm personally fed up with the piling on and attacking people that you and others are so prone to engage in."

For the record, this is the section of JU I post for myself. This thread was created by me. This topic was about Michael Vick, not race, not Appleton, and not Whip. She started posting on her own blog, about how I am oversensitive to her comments about race. When she couldn't lure me to post there, she came in here and tried to lure me into debating her racist banter and playing the victim. On her blog that's fine, I prefer to write about my topics differently.

As for pililng on, sometime what I write need clarification, and people also raise additional points or offer a counter perspective, or like you repeat the same assertion like you are writing a brick wall. At no time have I just added insults and I believe I posted in here requesting we drop the whole race angle because it is IRRELEVANT, and that we all stop trading the personal insults.

Show me where you did the same.

If you don't like what I write, you are free to leave and never come back. I don't think you have the right, when you say we should be jumping to protect racist banter, but you get fed up with what I have to say, being a "northerner."

"I've proven what I set out to prove."

Sure. If you are comfortable not citing anything about the racist examples you provide fine with me. The readers will consider that and me too. I'm comfortable presenting my perspective of Appleton, with citations of how and why Appleton is a nice place to live and I think a place of equality for all.

"Well, when the "N" word was put repeatedly on the woman's car and a dead raccoon dropped in her mailbox, I'd have a hard time thinking it had to do with the woman's fashion choices, Dan-O"


Can't find a word of print anywhere about this. Amazing Are you sure it didn't come from "Gids Ass Daily Crescent"?

It is amazing that nobody wrote about this at all. Nobody in...

Appleton
Grand Chute
Kimberly
Little Chute
Kaukauna
Combined Locks
Wrightstown
Sherwood
Neenah
Menansha
Greenville
Mackville

I found a story since we are now linked on Google With Appleton and Racism below that which has interesting comments by the readers of the story.

"http://www.postcrescent.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070901/APC06/709010507/1036/APCopinion"

Also your post on the topic Gid, is also #1 on Google, congratulations which means I can sue you for defamation if you continue to put words in my mouth.



Enjoy the rest of your weekend.

Here's some more "RESEARCH" For you Gid.

http://www.advancetitan.com/story.asp?issue=11214&story=4511

An article written in 2005, detailing some of the issues and factors in the race problem in Oshkosh. A telling comment from the article is this,

"I just want to be at a point where race isn’t even a thought. At some point it would be great to not have a Plan 2008 or little check boxes for my race."

That is the world I would like to live in, and work towards. If that's not where you are at thats ok but that is the direction I am moving and working towards.

If there are few minorities around, it's hard for them to have much political power, ain't it?



See, and here's the crux of the matter. You have virtually no respect for me, as you completely discard my personal experiences.

Let's see, I named the workplace where it happened, so it's a real physical location. That much is provable (Lamico, by the way, is, or at least was, on Marion road). I think actually citing a provable physical place should give you pause to at least consider the possibility I might not be lying.



The attack on LW, Dan. You took a "high horse" position, I just challenged it.



If you had even a SLIGHT knowledge of 20th century history, you would understand. I do not have the time nor the desire to engage in a lengthy historical lecture; that is what your education is for. I have no patience for those unwilling to do a little research on their own.

Heck, their home office is local, why don't you walk down there and check it out yourself. They're really a pretty decent group of folks; they just have a very conservative view on things.



I didn't prove there are 12 hate groups in Wisconsin? I didn't prove there was a Neo-Nazi organization in Appleton? I didn't prove that the John Birch Society, which opposed the Civil Rights Act of 1964, was based in Appleton? HMMMM, you're living with your head in the sand, Dan-O. As for specific examples, again, they have to MAKE the news to be a citable source.

I didn't prove Cha Vang is dead, murdered by a WHITE hunter? WWW Link

One of "your own" seems to see racism in Wisconsin. Here's an op-ed piece:

Locally, 5.7 percent of Wisconsin is African-American and 3.6 percent Latino, yet blacks make up 2.3 percent of UW-Madison and Latinos 2.5 percent.

WWW Link

You don't see racism in Wisconsin because you do not WANT to see racism in Wisconsin, Dan. I assure you, however, that it is there.

You claim LW is racist, yet you can't point me to any racist actions on her part. Yet when I claim I have seen more racism in Wisconsin than I ever saw in the south, you demand that I provide documented evidence of acts that I have personally witnessed? HMMM.



Yup. When 92% of the population shares your skin color, you can say that, can't you, Dan?

Wisconsin IS a nice place to live. Appleton is a nice place to live IF you discount the minority of snobs there (you OBVIOUSLY being included) who regard cities like Oshkosh as being backwater burgs and who look down on the rest of the nation as being unenlightened. And that's why I take issue with it, Dan. You're one of those snobs, and you give the good city of Appleton a bad name.

See, and that's the point, Dan. You flat out call me a liar.

Why wasn't it reported in the news? One, it wasn't reported in the local paper. The woman was scared for her life, Dan. I guess you can't understand that, can you? Of course not. Being a racial majority of 92% has its privileges.

It also was not reported to the cops for the same reason. The woman did not want to take the stand against the kind of person who would do this.

According to you, most domestic violence doesn't take place, right Dan? Or rape? Or child molestation? If it didn't get reported, it didn't happen BY YOUR OWN WORDS!

No, Dan, you cannot. Despite what you think, there actually has to be damage done for a defamation suit.

Nice try, though.

I checked out your RESEARCH SITE which you no doubt gathered from a Google search right?

Let me guess, KKK + Wisconsin right, or maybe it was Wisconsin + KKK, yeah there is a group. Hardly what I'd call mainstream. According to this "Intelligence Project"

Every single state in the nation has a racist group. Oh except the tiny and unpopulated ones like Hawaii, ND, SD, and ROAD ISLAND,

Thats is which certainly supports you assertion that "racism is everywhere" which I agree with. However, considering there is no active chapter in Oshkosh according to your own "Intelligence Project" and no record of violence in Appleton based on the "Intelligence Project"

I continue to have to disagree with your assertion that Appleton is "racist by nature". Please don't also make the connection that because neo nazi exist, and because the apparently have a party in Appleton, as well as hundreds of other cities in the United States, that Appleton Neo Nazism is going to bring a resurgence of Nazism in the United States, being that we are so "racist by nature" up here. LOL.

Can you even take me seriously at this point Gid?

Here's some more research for ya...

http://www.wrn.com/gestalt/go.cfm?objectid=31FD7BA8-784C-4A8F-A53E3707B8F043EE

"The Ku Klux Klan has apparently cancelled a rally scheduled for the Capitol steps this Saturday, but Wisconsin Klan spokesman Mike McQueeny says he won't personally call it off unless the Governor Thompson apologizes for his anti-Klan remarks and agrees to pay for the distribution of some Klan literature. But Governor's spokesman Kevin Keane says Thompson has no plans to apologize to McQueeny and thinks the Klan backed off because they simply knew they weren't welcome in Madison."

Smoke and mirrors I'm sure or some such bs you'll have to respond to that.

Actually, the Southern Poverty Law Center is one of the most authoritative sources on hate groups in America, Dan. Law enforcement agencies use their data in tracking hate groups. Again, this is something you would know if you had studied up much on it.

Do a little research on the SPLC, Dan, and you'll discover that I am right on this. The organization dates back to 1971 (according to wikipedia, at any rate), and their data on hate groups is generally regarded as reliable.



No, I'll be fair here. I would say it's a fair bet that if you could get membership rolls from the Appleton group, they probably include members from cities like Oshkosh, Neenah, Menasha, Little Chute, and others in the area and that Appleton is only their base. However, when I referenced racist activity I had personally witnessed in Oshkosh, you dismissed it as being unique to Oshkosh.

There are few acts of racial violence in Wisconsin in part because it is predominantly white. But they're not altogether absent, a point I'm sure you would readily concede.

I believe humans are by nature racist, Dan, and that Wisconsin is no exception. That doesn't mean that all humans are racist, just that the tendency is generally there. Wisconsin is in my experience, no more or no less racist than the rest of the nation. My only issue is when people from Wisconsin belittle racism from other states as if they were somehow above it.

But how would they even think of organizing if the Klan didn't EXIST in Wisconsin?