"No, Dan, you cannot. Despite what you think, there actually has to be damage done for a defamation suit.

Nice try, though."

Shucks I was just joking anyway, in the middle of punching gigantic holes in your theory of rampant Appletonian and Wisconsinite natural racist existence.

"But how would they even think of organizing if the Klan didn't EXIST in Wisconsin?"

The clan is not the central driving force or even a segment taken very seriously by the youth of this country. Unless they are indoctrinated by their parents. As you can watch on Maury Povich, nobody looks to join the clan as an adult, just like 40 year olds don't start smoking.

The reason people organize is because they know what the clan stands for and they don't want any part of it. Lots of people organize for a variety of things but when you see the statistics of the number of people who show up in the hundreds or thousands to protest the clan's 5-10-20 member show up, it becomes real clear real fast that racism and intolerance for other cultures is not a value people in Wisconsin, hold dearly.

The reason they organize to protest is because they are aware of it, because it's a big media story whenever people protest anything, certainly efforts by the Klan subverting the normal peace and freedom of people in our society locally doesn't go unnoticed.

"Actually, the Southern Poverty Law Center is one of the most authoritative sources on hate groups in America, Dan. Law enforcement agencies use their data in tracking hate groups. Again, this is something you would know if you had studied up much on it."

I'm saying the KLAN IS HARDLY MAINSTREAM, not your intelligence thingy. Why do you always try to twist my meanings or are you just dense?

"However, when I referenced racist activity I had personally witnessed in Oshkosh, you dismissed it as being unique to Oshkosh."

I dismiss it, as you making it up, until you back it, with some factual citation. Oshkosh is a different place than Appleton, that is what I said and that is what I mean. I didn't dismiss it because you think, I think Appleton is better than Oshkosh or what not like you said in your blog post asking me to do more research.

"There are few acts of racial violence in Wisconsin in part because it is predominantly white. But they're not altogether absent, a point I'm sure you would readily concede."

I will concede that there are a few acts of racial violence, duh. Few does not equal racist by nature. These acts are not also perpetrated, even in part, because of a predominate white demographic anymore than if they were in whole. They are perpetrated because people get liquored up and have nothing better to do. It is why they painted over the rock at my high school when Mexicans had their Mexican colors on it for Mexican Independence day and they put the Stars and Bars on it, replaced the next day by the school colors of Blue, White, and Gold.

If you are just looking to read into the racial side of everything, all crimes, sure you will find race, but the majority or Wisconsinites are not "racist by nature" as you characterized.

You punched holes in nothing, Dan. Everything I asserted, I supported.

Let me be frank, Dan. You could be someone I enjoyed conversing with if you didn't act like such a pompous ass. You are capable of abstract thought, but the problem is you automatically dismiss data that doesn't agree with yours as being inaccurate. A telling example is your response to the SPLC, a fairly respectable source of data.

Now, let's go outside Wisconsin a little bit for my point on northern racism. You may want to do a little hard research on the KKK. While the original Klan was organized in the South, the Klan that reorganized in the early part of the 20th century was more widespread. I'm going to use Wiki as a source on this, acknowledging it as less than perfect, but also acknowledging I don't have the time to pull up a laundry list of other sources. But you WILL find these points largely supported if you check them yourself:

The new Klan differed from the original one in that while the first Klan had been Southern, the new Klan was influential throughout the United States, with major political influence on politicians in several states. The new Klan was popular as far north as New England, where it engaged in violent activities such as torching an African American school in Scituate, Rhode Island.[52]

WWW Link

The Klan wielded very powerful influence in the midwest at one time, even controlling the state of Indiana completely for a brief time in the 30's before corruption brought that government down.

The only point I ever wanted to make in pointing out Wisconsin's racism is this, Dan: If we want to eliminate racism, we need to start with eliminating that which is closest to us. And we cannot do that by ignoring it or pretending it does not exist.

I agree with you on your general point that Appleton is a great place to live. But I disagree with you on the statement that racism is virtually nonexistent. And I have a lot of valid reasons for my position.

If you are just looking to read into the racial side of everything, all crimes, sure you will find race, but the majority or Wisconsinites are not "racist by nature" as you characterized.

"I believe humans are by nature racist, Dan, and that Wisconsin is no exception. That doesn't mean that all humans are racist, just that the tendency is generally there. Wisconsin is in my experience, no more or no less racist than the rest of the nation. My only issue is when people from Wisconsin belittle racism from other states as if they were somehow above it."

Then...

A. Why didn't you say that instead of separating Wisconsin from the rest of the Midwest and then the nation?
B. Explain that from the beginning?
C. Demonstrate a good faith argument from the beginning, backing up your supposed facts with literary citation.

You did provide some of course where is suited your point, but if you seriously believed that Wisconsin is no more or less racist than the rest of the nation, a point I specifically made, in almost the exact words, (now I'm suing you for plagirism) I just don't see how all of the sudden we can be in complete agreement when I haven't changed the tune or tone of what I have been saying since the beginning?

Thanks for finally stating the truth though Gid. I commend you for at least trying to reach common ground. I don't want you or Whip to feel that I make my point from the perspective of up on some high horse in Wisconsin, because that isn't it. I have always given the equality of perspective to everybody, until they proved to be taking advantage of it by being unfair in their discussion.

Please use the "K". My ancestry is largely Scottish and I would rather not see Scottich Clans in any way associated with this organization.



This is where I take issue. Dan, I provided you with the PHYSICAL PLACE where it happened. Because it wasn't reported, there's no hard data to give you. But I know what I, and others, witnessed.

You need to understand that every crime is not reported. Certain classes of crimes go largely unreported, and racial violence is among those categories. If I were going to "fudge" stories, Dan, I would fudge a whole laundry list of them, not a couple of incidents. And I'm a writer, I could certainly embellish more, if I were lying, as you allege.Come on, give me SOME credit here.



No, you questioned my source, Dan. All I am doing is supporting the credibility of my source. And my sources are generally reliable.

"The Klan wielded very powerful influence in the midwest at one time, even controlling the state of Indiana completely for a brief time in the 30's before corruption brought that government down."

1930's is too far gone for you to say that is it relevant. Those people old enough to have supported the clan are either dead, don't live in Indiana anymore, or aren't members of the clan. (because they are dead)

"The only point I ever wanted to make in pointing out Wisconsin's racism is this, Dan: If we want to eliminate racism, we need to start with eliminating that which is closest to us. And we cannot do that by ignoring it or pretending it does not exist."

You are saying that I said it does not exist. For the fifth time, you are mis-characterizing what I said. STOP.

Racism does exist, across the nation. BUT THAT DOESNT MEAN WISCONSIN IS RACIST BY NATURE WHICH IS WHAT YOU SAID! You said so yourself later, it is no more or less racist than anyplace else.

Pick a position and stick to it for the entire day if not the entire hour.

"But I disagree with you on the statement that racism is virtually nonexistent. And I have a lot of valid reasons for my position."

Yes you have, most of them undocumented unfortunately, you say because racism is rampant and the norm, I say because you either made em up, or the crimes were attributed to something other than racism. Valid perhaps, yet factual, not really.

For example, the Hmong hunter shooting, not racially related, culturally related but not racially related.

Because my point was and is that Wisconsin isn't on moral high ground here. I pointed out Wisconsin because you are FROM Wisconsin. If you were from Oregon, that would be my focus.

The community where I live currently has the only active chapter of the KKK in the Texas Panhandle (there are other groups, but as far as the Klan, we're the base). I believe in rooting out racism wherever exists, even (and especially) when it hits close to home.

"No, you questioned my source, Dan. All I am doing is supporting the credibility of my
source. And my sources are generally reliable."

You say I questioned it when in fact I just utilized it to point out to you racism occurs nationwide, which we both agree on. I questioned your story about the woman with the racial slur on her car and a dead raccoon in her mailbox.

"This is where I take issue. Dan, I provided you with the PHYSICAL PLACE where it happened. Because it wasn't reported, there's no hard data to give you. But I know what I, and others, witnessed."

You may be ignorant of the whole picture. You may not know whether or not it was a lover quarrel, an upset boyfriend or girlfriend. To quote a crazy bastard Rumsfeld "You don't know what you don't know."

Which is to say, you don't know the entirety of the circumstances. It could be purely, racially motivated or, it could be in part, or not at all.

"You need to understand that every crime is not reported. Certain classes of crimes go largely unreported, and racial violence is among those categories. If I were going to "fudge" stories, Dan, I would fudge a whole laundry list of them, not a couple of incidents. And I'm a writer, I could certainly embellish more, if I were lying, as you allege.Come on, give me SOME credit here."

Which is why I can find hardly anything at all on Fox Valley Racism or Appleton Racism with any credibility or in depth reporting. Certain classes of crime go largely unreported, but I don't believe that to be true in Appleton, I'm sorry. The city is not to the size where political influence or tiny budges get in the way of professional operations.

You are saying when you said "Wisconsin is racist by nature", that that wasn't embellishment?

"Because my point was and is that Wisconsin isn't on moral high ground here. I pointed out Wisconsin because you are FROM Wisconsin. If you were from Oregon, that would be my focus.

The community where I live currently has the only active chapter of the KKK in the Texas Panhandle (there are other groups, but as far as the Klan, we're the base). I believe in rooting out racism wherever exists, even (and especially) when it hits close to home."

Nobody is on high moral ground when it comes to race. The only ground needed is ethical ground. Treat people the same irregardless of race. In Appleton I believe we do as good a job of that as any, as evidenced by the cities webpage, organizations, events, and community outreach. Just because there is a small group who wants to be a rebel or supremest doesn't mean the represent the community at large.

Go ahead a rout out racism, I will work with you and support you, but don't be calling communities "racist by nature" who are not and actively work against it as much as any place else.

I don't believe that's been conclusively proven. If you have more recent data, by all means, I'd love to see it.



No, I didn't say that. You're actually misunderstanding what I'm saying. I'm saying we can't do that BY ignoring it or pretending it doesn't exist. I didn't say that is what you are doing. Just that that was my point.

My point was (and is) that racism ain't just a "southern thang". It exists all over the globe.

Also, I must point out, we're both typing and responding at the same time, so there IS some wire crossing going on.



Yes, and no. You need to understand that those Klansmen had children, and that many of those children were raised in that mindset. And they raised children in that mindset.

We have thankfully, become more enlightened over the intervening years, but the influences that terrorized this country with racism exist in all parts of the country.



No, didn't say it is rampant and the norm. Not any more so than the rest of the country, anyway. All I said was that I witnessed (referring to my own personal experience, not hard data here) more virulent racism in the north than in the south.

PART of the reason for that is that the south is still largely segregated, so that racists don't live next door to the race they hate quite as often. So the hate they have doesn't boil over as quickly as in communities in the north where the communities don't divide on racial lines. So when I grew up in the poor part of town (if you're poor in the South, there's little difference between white and black), I didn't see many racist acts.



And again, I resent the inference that I made them up, Dan. That's the point that pisses me off.

How can I "prove" what wasn't in the press? I know what I saw, and I relayed it as best I could.

Again, if I were making things up, it would be in my best interest to make up a whole host of stories.

LOL.

OK, Dan, on this one, I would have to say that circumstantial evidence pointed VERY heavily at a particular individual who had some very strong views that he expressed frequently in the break room. While we can't say for sure that he did it, I'd say we were about 90%. And if it was this individual, it wasn't no lover's quarrel, that's for sure.

What really ticked me off at the whole incident wasn't the initial act. Idiots are idiots, after all, as we both well know. Where I got upset was when her car was parked in front of the window where someone HAD to have witnessed it, yet noone came forth. I have seen too many instances where people have allowed bad things to happen because they didn't want to get involved.



No, it's not political influence or tiny budgets, Dan. It's fear on the part of the victim, in my experience. I think most reporters would readily go with the story if someone would give them something solid to proceed with.



Not in my experience, no, Dan. Again, I heard a lot of "water cooler" talk, and I knew a lot of individuals there.

Now, this "water cooler" talk was not usually the violent sort of racism that lynches people in the town square, more the "nappy headed hos" brand that caricatures minorities. But it was still quite prevalent.

I found Hmongs, not blacks, the preferred target of such comments. But I did find them pretty widespread.

What makes you believe that the shooting incident, involving the Hmong man, and the party of hunters was racially motivated?

"Yes, and no. You need to understand that those Klansmen had children, and that many of those children were raised in that mindset. And they raised children in that mindset."

Point taken. But a Klan that was a political force in 1930's isn't something that could be considered mainstream. The NSDAP in Germany was the political force that catapulted Hitler to Dictator of Germany but nobody would argue the NSDAP has any "mainstream" effect in Germany.

That's not the one that I think was racially motivated. Well, I do, but I'll readily concede all evidence is circumstantial and we will likely never know the full story. So I'll give you that there's not necessarily a racist element with THAT one.

I am speaking of the more recent incident, where a Hmong hunter was murdered by a white hunter. While it again hasn't been proven, there are a lot more questions on this case.

Agreed. But the stereotype is that racism is mainstream in the South. My chief contention is that racism isn't any less present in the North, it only takes on different forms.