Again still waiting for a specific example of your experiences. Why don't you provide some examples of open persecution of Hmongs?

Gid you seem to think I stated that Wisconsin isn't a racist state. I didn't say that, but it is no more or less racist than anyplace else. I tend to believe that people are given a pretty fair shake here because we don't have a lot of race issues, being pre-dominantly white. What do you want me to do about it?

Your perspective is different than mine. Appleton is the only place I have called my home for years. I know this town quite well. You go ahead and make any claim you want Gid, I'm not going to just say the opposite because you say something, and then provide nothing to back it.

What street did you live on in Oshkosh?

"And how conveniently you miss the KKK rallies in Madison."

Would you be talking about this one that was canceled because of public outcry in 1999?

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=03/04/07/0354218

Why don't you before you go any farther, provide some back up to what you have already stated. Until you do, don't expect me to participate in discussion with you, without any credibility whatsoever coming from your side of the discussion.

Thanks.

You mean the ones the news agencies DON'T report?

Do you want the tale of the factory worker (Lamico, if you must know the business) who was forced from her job because of racial epithets painted on her car? She told management, of course, and they allowed her to park her car in front of the windows where the workers could keep an eye on it. The vandalism continued, yet although it happened under the eye of the workers, nobody saw a damn thing! For the record, I worked in a department where I was unable to see what was going on, so there was nothing I could do.

The racism followed this woman home. She was harassed at home routinely.

Or I could tell the tale of the man who stood on the street corner with his two year old son in the stroller shouting obscenities at the Hmong family who lived across the street. When asked what he was doing, he replied "training my son up right!"

Or we could get less obvious, less esoteric, and talk about the literally hundreds of "water cooler" discussions that stereotyped Hmongs, caricatured their race, treated them as less than human and spread lies about them. The kind of things newspaper reporters are loathe to report but that I found to be commonplace in Wisconsin. And again, I did spend a good deal of time in Appleton, and, in fact, most of the activities of our homeschool organization were centered in/around Appleton. My children, by the way, were born in Neenah, so I'd say we pretty much travelled throughout the Fox River Valley.



I fail to see how that makes any difference. If it's somehow relevant (I'm guessing your purpose is that you're questioning whether I actually LIVED there), I'll name two: Monroe and Jefferson.



You don't SEE a lot of the racist issues, Dan.

What I want you to do about it is move out of the glass house, Dan. Don't condemn southerners for what you view as racism, when it is just as pervasive, just as persistent, where you live.

You've launched outright attacks on LW simply for her being honest. Do I "approve" of her colorful language? Not usually. But since I'm not her censor, I fail to see where I get a vote. Free speech is utterly dependent on defending the speech we don't like, and the LW's of the world are FAR easier to deal with due to their honesy than the racists who hide in the shadows and in their social clubs.

Hmongs are a group of people from Laos/Cambodia. As I understand it, they are a tribal culture. They assisted the US Army during Vietnam and after, and basically have no home because many of their countrymen feel them to be traitors.

And so, they were brought over en masse to the United States, where many of them settled in the midwest. There is a great deal of culture clash and outright racism directed in these areas against Hmongs, despite what Dan Greene would have you believe. And it occasionally turns violent. A few years back, a Hmong hunter was arrested after shooting several white hunters. He claimed they shouted racial slurs at him, and the survivors denied it. The hunter was convicted and is serving multiple life sentences (there is no death penalty in Wisconsin). Given my experience with the prejudice against Hmongs in Wisconsin, I am inclined to believe the account of the shooter, even if it didn't justify his actions.

In January, near Green Bay (which is about 40 miles from Dan's utopia), a Hmong hunter was shot by a white hunter. The motivation is suspected to be racial.

Another tidbit you fail to mention when you hold Appleton up as the beacon of enlightenment while Oshkosh is just a backwater burg (NOT an uncommon attitude in those parts, I must say): Appleton (this beacon on the hill) is also the publishing hone of the New American, the flagship publication of...(drumroll please): the JOHN BIRCH SOCIETY. While the JBS is not overtly racist, there is not a particular shortage of racists among their ranks.

I am unaware of the vandalism event you describe nor can I find any record of it happening. Please show me a site if you will.

I further believe that your description of the hunting incident is lacking a few key factors. First that the man in question was trespassing, second that he shot and killed several members of the hunting party, fled the scene, and changed his story a few times.

"Don't condemn southerners for what you view as racism, when it is just as pervasive, just as persistent, where you live."

That's your assertion, that it is as persistent and pervasive. My side of the country chose to ally on the side of union rather than succession. My point, race is not nearly the factor you say it is, in Wisconsin.

"Given my experience with the prejudice against Hmongs in Wisconsin, I am inclined to believe the account of the shooter, even if it didn't justify his actions."

It may be that the place you worked at or whatever, in the 90's, allowed and tolerated these kinds of "water cooler" discussions about people of other races. Fact is I have seen a few people discharged for such a thing in my working life during that time. In todays workplace, that is 2007, with as compeitive as it is, if you have "race issues" you also have "job issues" meaning if you can't get past other people being different or make comments of a racial nature, you won't be long employed by companies in this community.

Personally I just don't see that as acceptable topic for discussion in the workplace. Nor would it be tolerated by equal opportunity laws and practices by local communities.

You seem to think I am oblivious and naive about "the racism" but I am very conscience of people's beliefs and have been fortunate to not have to tolerate intolerance at work.

For the most part, that type of attitude springs from ignorance and lack of education. When I lived on the other side of Appleton I had Hmong neighbors, on this side I have four Hmong families that live on this street, it's not really a block sort of a round about route. I live on a street which is across from the Technical college, and there is an apartment complex where a lot of the student residents don't speak English as a first language. This was right next to the gas station I worked at. Today I work with a diverse group of people of many different races, religions and cultures. I have not yet gone to college seeking a two, four, or eight year education, but I did attend my siblings' graduation. At this there was a particular point made that there were students from over 100 countries on that campus. That was in Green Bay.

I find it extremely tiring, that you will make me and the readers jump through four different hoops to see a connection, between the citizens of Appleton, who run a publishing house that publishes, among other things, "The New American" and though this media, which as you say, doesn't advocate racism or racist activity, is a product of the "John Birch Society" which again, doesn't advocate racism or racist activity, but that there are racists that belong to "the society".

Gid this kind of thing is IRRESPONSIBLE and INEXCUSABLE! If I could ban you for being full of shit I would lol.

How do you go from "Appleton being racist by nature" to a being home to a press that publishes a publication in which a lot of readers are racist? That's such a load. Appleton bears no responsibility for printing racist material. You are so full of shit I can't even begin to find the motivation to continue to point it out.

Do yourself a favor, if you don't like Wisconsin fine, but move to another country like Iraq, or one that doesn't have the internet, say, North Korea.

"Free speech is utterly dependent on defending the speech we don't like"

Nobody said anything about taking away your right Whips right to use racist language. It's against the TOU but not a crime. Nor should it be. Also badmouthing Wisconsin is fine too. The kicker is, nobody takes your assertions about Wisconsin or Whips about race any farther than amusement because that's all they count for. Not fact, not correlation, not wise words, nothing but amusement.

Poor amusement at that.

Anybody got more to talk about Vick or shall we close this one down?

No, idiot boy. The OFFICES are there. The EDITOR and STAFF for the publication work there!



Again, it didn't get reported. I WITNESSED IT!

So if it doesn't get reported it didn't happen, eh, DAN?

And I love your "love it or leave it" crap. So now if I don't embrace Wisconsin, I'm not allowed in this country, is that it, oh most high liberal of liberals?

By the way, I didn't want to say it, since you referred to just the publishing house, but the John Birch Society itself is based in Appleton. You can look it up if you'd like, Dan, but obviously facts are irrelevant to you. At 25, you know all there is to know. Good luck with that.

By the way, before you call me a liar for saying their headquarters are in Appleton, would you consider their webpage a credible source?

WWW Link

"Again still waiting for a specific example of your experiences. Why don't you provide some examples of open persecution of Hmongs?"

"I am unaware of the vandalism event you describe nor can I find any record of it happening. Please show me a site if you will."

Personal experiences often don't get on the news. If you want news articles, ask for news articles. If you want personal experience, you can't really ask for a source besides the source.

A little more on your "enlightened" state, Dan. Here, from the Southern Poverty Law Center, are the Neo-Nazi groups in Wisconsin. I can't read the name of the city of the first one listed. Can YOU?

Appleton · Aryan Nations
Neo-Nazi



Green Bay · National Socialist Movement - NSM
Neo-Nazi



Madison · National Socialist Movement - NSM
Neo-Nazi



Milwaukee · National Socialist Movement - NSM
Neo-Nazi
· New Order
Neo-Nazi



WWW Link

Note Oshkosh is conspicuously absent on the list.

The next time you want to call me a liar, Dan, do your research. I HAVE.

"Personal experiences often don't get on the news. If you want news articles, ask for news articles. If you want personal experience, you can't really ask for a source besides the source."

In Wisconsin, that is the point, this kinda stuff does make news because it is not typical.

Gid Neo-Nazi's are everywhere. That doesn't mean, that they constitute a majority of Appletonians, Wisconsinites, or that you aren't full of shit.

"And I love your "love it or leave it" crap. So now if I don't embrace Wisconsin, I'm not allowed in this country, is that it, oh most high liberal of liberals?"

Words you pulled out of your ass and are trying to put into my mouth.

"By the way, I didn't want to say it, since you referred to just the publishing house, but the John Birch Society itself is based in Appleton. You can look it up if you'd like, Dan, but obviously facts are irrelevant to you. At 25, you know all there is to know. Good luck with that."

Yea so maybe you should bug somebody else with your banter. Just because some organizations who are racist or have a racist agenda exist in Appleton, does not mean they do not exist in places where are more or less racist than Appleton. The community reflects a diverse crowd, the fact that there are a minority who choose to be ignorant and respectful of other races does not in fact make them a majority or the rest of the community "racist by nature"

End of discussion on that point, from my perspective. I will happily acknowledge that there is a segment of every community that doesn't want outsiders or people who the perceive as different but the idea that that segment is anymore or less than anyplace else or in fact the majority is flat out wrong. Call me uninformed or naive and too little and young to grasp such a concept as hidden racist agenda, justify your need for the community as you remember it to be a racist place, or whatever. I'm done listening to it.

"Negro is not a racist term," I agree. Start paying attention, actually reading what I post, to what is posted and you'd see the N word I am talking about is not NEGRO!

"If you want news articles, ask for news articles."

I just did.

"I am unaware of the vandalism event you describe nor can I find any record of it happening. Please show me a site if you will."

And I answered.

Maybe I should try to find the lady and tell her it never happened because Dan Greene wants to poke his head in the sand and ignore the racism that is RAMPANT in his state.



You've got it backwards, Dan. News is made WHEN something isn't typical.

Look at fender benders. They never make the news. Because they happen multiple times a day. Multi car wrecks or plane crashes DO make the news because they DON'T happen every day.

In your alternate reality, 9/11 would have never made the news because it "is not typical"!



No, they're NOT everywhere, Dan. There were only a few places in Wisconsin, and Appleton, which YOU tried to hold up as a model of racial tolerance, is one of them.



Nope, words you SAID, Dan.



91% white is not diverse, Dan. I find it interesting that YOU are the expert on Wisconsin, while my wife, who is older than you and lived there her ENTIRE LIFE until 4 years ago, is somehow ignorant on the topic. Or, for that matter, that I am ignorant on the topic, seeings how I lived there from a time when you were in grade school until a few short years ago. I called your crap on this one, Dan, and your responses are weak and you KNOW it.



Because I verbally kicked your lily white ASS!

And here's a little free time reading for you, Dan, if you can pull your head out of your liberal spin magazines:



WWW Link

Nope, I chose you because I'm tired of your self righteous attacks from inside your glass house, Dan.

The truth is, racism exists everywhere, and no region has a monopoly on it. But YOU made several statements to the effect that Appleton was particularly safe from racism, even going so far as to call me a liar when I related a personal experience and to invite me to leave the country if I didn't love Wisconsin. You held Appleton, Wisconsin up as a paragon of virtue and when I proved otherwise, you backpedaled.

You state there are hate groups "everywhere", yet to my recollection, there are more than 12 cities in Wisconsin. The fact that Appleton is home to one of twelve neo-nazi groups in the state, as WELL as to the ULTRA conservative John Birch Society says a lot, especially given Appleton's size of just over 100,000 people.